Commercial Fishing Tips | Get on the skimmers with Steve Ringer
AT this time of year, carp and F1s can be fickle creatures. Cooling water makes them less inclined to feed for long spells and, for the angler, that can mean a lot of wasted time spent waiting for a bite.
By changing your target species to skimmers, though, action is guaranteed. I know that they’re not everyone’s cup of tea, thanks to the slime they always leave behind on landing nets and clothing, but if they’re the right size, then skimmers are a great fish to spend those quiet spells of the session fishing for.
They grow big in commercials, thanks to a diet of pellets, meaning that catching 30lb of fish around the 1lb 8oz to 2lb mark is relatively simple. They also don’t need a specialised approach. When you’re fishing a commercial water the baits you use for carp will just as readily be taken by skimmers –namely corn and pellets.
Skimmers are a great fish to spend those quiet spells of the session fishing for
Catch close in
Skimmers like deeper water, and to catch them quickly you need to fish close in too. Look for so 5ft depth around 6m out. For the bigger fish you might have to go longer and deeper though.
Look for a depth of around 5ft for skimmers
Balls of pellets
Micros are the best feed on commercials, because the skimmers see so many. Instead of feeding them loose, where they can be spread out too much, feed a dampened ball of them.
A damp ball of pellets will keep the skimmers near your hookbait
Corn is king!
Although expander pellets would be my main hookbait, big skimmers love corn. I only use corn when trying for a better fish and will feed a few grains by hand to attract the bigger ones.
Skimmers love corn
Positive floats
You need a substantial float in deep water. The Guru Wire Pinger in 0.6g is very stable, allowing me to combat any wind or tow. I work the rig by lifting and dropping it to entice a bite.
Use a stable float in deep water
River fishing tips | Fish the feeder for floodwater bream with Kelvin Tallet
Hopefully by the time you read this, the floods in your area will have subsided or at least begun to.
I live in the West Midlands, and I’m lucky in that there is a wide variety of rivers to fish. Except in the most extreme conditions, I can usually find somewhere to go. And as someone who loves running water more than anything else, I will go out of my way to find fishable areas.
Even when there is extra water in a river, as long as it can be accessed and fished safely, there will be fish to be caught.
Deep areas, the inside of bends, lock cuttings and backwaters will all produce fish, and it’s amazing what species will turn up in places you least expect. You’ll even catch out in the main flow, although fishing here can be challenging!
Warm flood
Of all the fish in our rivers, two species seem to positively thrive in what I would describe as a ‘warm flood’. This is where the river has been high and coloured for a few days, debris has been washed away, and levels have settled or maybe started to fall.
In these conditions, barbel and bream make good targets and it was bream I decided to fish for during a trip to the Warwickshire Avon near Stratford recently.
The famous Lido stretch of the river here offers numerous swims which vary tremendously according to the state of the river. Some that are hardly worth fishing in normal levels can suddenly produce when there’s extra water in the river, and for today’s session I visited one of these in the hope of catching some bream.
I’m sure there are swims on your local river that become similarly transformed in a flood. The fish you catch may not be huge, but the feeling of satisfaction can be immense when your quivertip goes round or drops back and you feel that tell-tale ‘thud’ of something worth catching on the other end.
Plenty of feed
Today’s session was always going to be feeder job with bream the target. My plan was to introduce a decent bed of bait at a nice comfortable cast towards the main flow, but not right in it.
I began with six big feederfuls of groundbait to which I’d added plenty of chopped worms and red maggots. Once the feeder had hit bottom I ‘struck’ to release the feed, and once I was happy I set my rig up. This incorporated a feeder with 1oz of lead attached – not a heavy weight but enough to hold bottom in the moderate flow. Had the flow had been stronger, a heavier feeder would be required.
The rig
Slide a Korum Feedabead on to the mainline.
Clip your chosen feeder on to the Feedabead.
Tie a quick-change bead on to the end of the mainline.
Attach a 2ft hooklength to the quick-change bead. The hooklength had a 9ins loop at the top, knotted at 3ins intervals to make three smaller loops acting as a boom.
Finally, fix a small shot 4ins above the hooklink to create a mini bolt rig
The session
It was a beautiful early winter’s day and I really fancied it for a few fish, but instead of the hoped-for bream, my first fish after 20 minutes was a small perch.
Not the ideal start, but I needn’t have worried because on the next cast the tip jagged round again and this time it was decent skimmer bream, which looked a picture in the sunlight. Another soon followed, again on worm tipped with a dead maggot on a strong size 16 hook, before bites stopped.
I wondered whether this might be because the fish were feeding well and they wanted more bait, so I added two more baiting feeders, this time with more worms added. This worked a treat as three more skimmers followed in the next half-hour.
Again, bites ceased, so two more big feeders of bait went in and the skimmers returned, along with a couple of roach and another perch. So it continued, and I ended the day with eight skimmers, two roach and two perch – an extremely pleasing result at a time when many anglers wouldn’t have gone anywhere near their local river!
CLUB INFORMATION
Kelvin was fishing the Lido stretch of the Warwickshire Avon near Stratford. Visit www.leamingtonangling.co.uk for details
Canal fishing tips | Winter tips for a mixed bag of fish
When you’re faced with a lot of fish to catch in your swim, surely you’ll need an equally large amount of bait to feed and keep what’s in front of you happy?
Well, that’s not entirely the case. As winter draws near, I’ve found that less is more. By using a more frugal feeding strategy, I can catch quicker, better-quality fish into the bargain. It’s all to do with giving the fish little choice as to what they eat.
If you pop your hookbait in among a continual stream of feed or several large balls of groundbait it’ll take the fish longer to find what’s on the hook compared to if they have only a minimal amount of bait to get stuck into.
Feeding regularly also seems to pull in more small fish, so if we’re talking quality, almost starving them on to the hook is best.
So, after bagging a load of rudd on the waggler early on in my session on the Stainforth & Keadby Canal at Wykewell it was time to have a look on the pole for some big fish – we’re talking skimmers, big roach, perch and perhaps even a tench – all for the price of just a few balls of groundbait and some chopped worm, casters and dead red maggots!
Getting the feeding right
We’re talking minimal feed, but how much goes in at the start?
My peg is always home to lots of fish at this time of year so I don’t need to ladle the bait in to pull those skimmers and roach into the swim.
Instead, two large balls of groundbait are ample. To these I’ll add a little finely-chopped worm, a few casters and some dead maggots.
From this point I will top up either when the bites fade or I begin to catch small silver fish or little perch.
This extra feed takes the form of a nugget of groundbait around the size of a large walnut, nothing more and nothing less. Feed more and those fish become harder to catch because there’s more choice for them to eat.
This way of fishing and feeding also rules out using a catapult to introduce casters, for example, over the top. I want the fish to be feeding on the bottom and over my groundbait to keep everything tidy and to be eating what’s already gone in, which is precisely where my hookbait will be.
In the mix
Groundbait is a simple affair, a 50/50 split of Mainline Match Pro Active and Sweet Marine. The Marine has some fishmeal in it, and although the jury is out with a lot of anglers as to whether skimmers on natural waters really like fishmeal, I’m in the ‘yes’ camp mainly because pleasure anglers on this canal do use pellets and the fish are used to them.
The next job is to be stringent about how many goodies go into the crumb.
Because I want the fish to find my hookbait, I need to limit the options available so we’re talking just a reasonable sprinkling of casters and dead maggots but a good pinch of chopped worm, as this is what skimmers like the most. Fill each ball with too much feed and it’ll take you longer to catch.
Be accurate
Feeding so little, I’m not creating a large area over which to run my rig, in fact, I won’t be running it at all. By having a far-bank marker lined up I know exactly where the groundbait is on the bottom of the canal and, as a result, where to lower my rig in and hold it still.
This catches the better fish on the canal, whereas I find that putting any movement into the rig only results in a small fish.
To keep everything tight, a relatively short length of line between pole and float is a must – no more than a metre.
Where to fish
Big fish on canals do like to live in the deepest water down the middle, but they’re also partial to moving slightly up the far-bank slope where you’ll find less in the way of weed or potential snags, so this is where I’d base my attack.
In my peg, this is around 13m out, a nice comfortable distance to fish and essentially where the main depth begins to shallow up from the middle, going perhaps a metre up the slope. I’m aiming to find around 8ft of water.
Big hookbaits, big fish
There’s little point in trying to catch quality fish with the wrong hookbaits, so this means maggots and pinkies are off the bait list. Instead, double caster is unbeatable, especially for big roach, while skimmers love a head section of dendra worm around a couple of centimetres long.
To further cut down on the chances of a small fish taking the bait I lower my rig directly down on to the feed. Laying it in to one side runs too much of a risk of a tiny rudd grabbing the bait.
Winning rig
To try and avoid small-fish trouble, a sensible float is needed to get the bait down fast so for 8ft of water, a 0.8g or 4x18 Perfect Gloucester is just the job.
This is set three to four inches overdepth to keep everything still over the feed and is shotted with a bulk of shot set about 2ft from the hook and then two No10 droppers between this and the hooklink.
The droppers will give the bait a slow fall close to the bottom and, therefore, the chance of a big rudd or even a skimmer sitting off bottom grabbing it.
The rest of the rig is balanced stuff, light enough to get bites but with enough steel to land a tench or bream.
That means 0.13mm Guru N-Gauge mainline to an 0.09mm hooklink, a size 18 Pole Special hook and a No6 solid elastic.
Fishing for skimmer bream in deep rivers with Mark Pollard
We’ve had a funny winter as far as fishing on rivers is concerned, with no real floods and the extra water that comes with it, combined with short spells of mild and then freezing cold weather that adds up to testing conditions for the angler and a less than enthusiastic response from the fish!
Roach in particular have some weeks been ten a penny and then absent a few days later but one fish that’s always willing to have a go, even in clear, cold water is the skimmer. On some venues they’re a bonus but on others, they are your main weight-building fish and can give you 15lb to 20lb in a match – provided you fish correctly for them of course.
Winter skimmer fishing on a river is nothing like summer when you can bosh the bait in and fish very positively with rigs and big baits. Scaling down is needed and a different approach to how you feed must be adopted but you’ll still need a fair bit of groundbait. The idea is to tempt the fish into having a go every time you feed as opposed to introducing a big bed of bait and fishing over this all-day.
The River Ouse through Ely Town Centre is stacked with skimmers and although it isn’t a match venue as such, it bears a strong resemblance to many deep, slow flowing town centre venues that are popular in winter. With over 15ft of water on the pole line and a variable flow, it certainly isn’t a river for fishing on auto pilot as can happen when going after skimmers in warmer weather!
Pole V feeder
The first thing to consider is whether to fish the pole or feeder? You’ll catch on both of course and is such deep water, it can be tempting to pick up the rod but taking on 15ft-plus isn’t as hard as it seems provided your rig is heavy enough and the groundbait mix is stiff enough to get straight to the bottom. The pole also offers far superior presentation, allowing me to cover more of the swim and inch the float through the peg gently, tempting the fish into taking the bait. In contrast, the feeder only lets you fish the hookbait in one spot and I think you miss out on a lot of baits my limiting yourself this way.
Finding the right spot
I wouldn’t bother messing about with fishing on a shelf or a slope in winter. Bream and skimmers always prefer a flat bottom in the maximum depth and at Ely, there are two shelves before you find the main depth. I then fish just past this final shelf where the flow is at its steadiest.
Floats - go as light as possible
So in deep water, you think it’d be right to fish a big float, say of around 3g but that’s actually not the case! I’m a big fan of fishing as light as I can get away with because I think this not only produces better presentation and offers less resistance to a fish when holding the rig still but you also miss fewer bites than using a heavier float. So in my Ely peg, which has a reasonable flow, that means a 2g MP Roach using an olivette and four No 11 droppers underneath strung out to cover the final few feet of the swim. If the river was flowing more slowly, I may even consider dropping down to a 1g float.
How far overdepth?
River bream fishing does involve setting the rig overdepth but not massively in winter when bites can be very shy. I’ll plumb up and then slide the float a couple of inches up the line and that’s about it. This then allows me to inch the rig through the peg without it dragging under every time. If I was wanting to go any more overdepth, then I would be essentially aiming to hold the float dead still and I think you’d be better off fishing the feeder or a pole feeder in this instance.
Canal-style hooks
There’s a bit of a nod to canal fishing with my hooks, lines and elastics and the first element is the hook, a Kamasan B511 in size 16. This is a superbly fine, light hook that’s still capable of landing a bonus perch or bream and provided that the pole elastic is soft enough, there will be no dramas from bumped fish or bent hooks! I rig up a No 6 Matrix Solid elastic through the top three of the pole and set it soft so that plenty comes out and it acts as a great shock absorber. Likewise, line is 0.14mm Matrix Power Micron to a hooklink of the same material in 0.10mm. Using a big float doesn’t mean that you have to use big hooks and thick lines too! I then have around 1.5m of line between float and pole tip to let me run the float down the peg when needed.
Cup in – don’t ball it!
Let’s look at groundbait now, perhaps the most important part of any type of skimmer fishing. Before I explain the mix, I think it is important to impress that cupping the balls of feed in rather than throwing them is vital. Throw several balls in and you cannot say with any certainty, how accurate you have been. This is fine in summer but not on a cold winter’s day. My aim is to create one spot where all of the groundbait ends up and from this I can then work around the area, either holding the rig tight on top of it or running it below or above the spot.
The magic skimmer mix
Now onto the mix. This needs to be heavy enough to go straight to the bottom in 15ft of water and I go for Dynamite Baits Frenzied Hemp Black, Silver X Roach and brown crumb in a ratio of one part Hemp Black to half a part of the other two mixes. The finished groundbait is not mega sticky to the touch but if mixed wet enough, will hold together and go straight down. To this I add a smattering of casters, dead pinkies and hemp, which skimmers love. Hookbait is simply double dead red maggot with one hooked through the flat end and the other through the pointed end.
When to top up
At the start I will pot in five balls of groundbait and from there I see how the fish respond. When the bites fade I will pop in another ball of if nothing is happening, another goes in after 20 minutes and this then sets the pattern. You can get through a lot of groundbait this way so I mix up at least three kilos for a match. What I have found in winter is that you get an initial flurry of bites from that opening hit of bait before it then goes dead. The fish are still there but they’re not feeding with any amount of positivity. You need to give them another ball to get a few of them to move back over the feed area and have a go. Typically, you can expect to catch two or three skimmers or get half a dozen indications before you need to feed again.
Work out how the fish want it
Hold the rig still or run it through? There’s no definitive answer to this and it can change from day to day. I begin by inching the rig over the groundbait area very slowly at around half the pace of the flow as this tells me immediately where the fish are in the peg – they could on top of the feed or well below it. If I catch on top of the feed then the sensible thing to do is hold the rig back on top of it but if I get a few fish below the feed area, then running will be best.
Don’t wait for the float to bury
I leave all of the float bristle on show so that I can drag a bit of line overdepth but when the water is cold, bites are never full-blooded affairs. The only indication you may get will look more like something from a little roach – they’re not though! Skimmers can be very, very shy and often with the set-up I use, the float will lift a little and then the tip sinks a fraction. Either strike at this or if holding the rig still, let the rig go slack and run for a few inches before striking as this allows the fish to get hold of the bait confidently.
Fish with Polly!
If you fancy brushing up on a bit of canal roach fishing or perhaps learning a completely new method, Mark offers fishing days on a range of venues. From group sessions to one to one coaching, birthdays or corporate days, he can offer the lot on any type of venue and any method. Bait is supplies – all you need to bring is your kit!
To book a day with Mark, give him a call on 07557 052053 or e-mail him at info@markpollardfishingdays.com and he will be in touch. Check out his website at http://www.markpollardfishingdays.com/ for more information.
Des Shipp's guide to catching F1 carp on the pole
It’s all too easy to write off catching fish at short range on winter commercial fisheries as a combination of clearish water and low temperatures makes even the most optimistic of anglers resigned to catching nothing a few metres out from the bank.
But according to England star Des Shipp, you’re missing a massive trick by giving a short line the cold shoulders, especially if your venue is home to big, wily F1s that don’t get caught fishing at longer ranges on the pole or feeder.
As a match angler, Preston Innovations-backed Des knows only too well the value of feeding a fishing a swim just 5m or 6m out, even when there’s ice on the water. He’s had many matches that have sent him from zero to hero in a hectic hour’s bagging on a short pole line and the exact same principles apply to a day’s pleasure fishing that might not have yielded much fishing further out.
“Although 6m out is not a natural patrol route for F1s as such, they will still move closer to the bank as the day goes on,” Des advised. “For that reason, this short line isn’t one that you’ll empty from the word go and it may be that you only catch for 30 minutes right at the end of the day but this short period of time can produce 10 big F1s in as many chucks and turn a poor day into something that makes the grinning and bearing of winter worthwhile.”
The right distance
“The first job is to decide where to fish and my general rule is to go around a top kit of my pole plus two sections out, which is around 5m or 6m,” Des explained. “However, there needs to be the right depth here and I’d look for between 4ft and 5ft on a flat bottomed area. If the bottom is sloping at this range, that’s not ideal so I’d keep adding sections until I find a flat spot.”
Nothing but maggots
“I leave pellets and corn for fishing longer and on the short line, I use just maggots, which are brilliant for winter fishing on commercials,” he said. “It’s true that they pull in silverfish, which can be a nuisance but if the roach and skimmers are of a decent stamp, I don’t mind catching them while waiting for the F1s to have a go. I take three pints of red and white maggots plus a few fluoro pinkies.”
All in the timing
“I wouldn’t fish short for at least two hours because firstly, you won’t catch F1s at short range this quickly and secondly, I like to give my long pole or feeder line the chance to build up,” Des explained. “By working out how many bites I am getting when fishing long and how good the fishing is, I can then make the decision as to when I have a look short. By this, I mean that if I am getting lots of bites on the long pole and the fish are of a decent size, this tells me that I can expect to get bites short a lot earlier. If the fishing is hard, it might not be as solid close in.”
Have some faith!
“I’d never write off the short line as in the final hour the F1s can rock up and you can get one every drop in so early on, you may only be having a quick look short before reverting back to the long pole,” he said. “If you catch a few F1s then don’t hammer the peg by staying on it. If the bites then fade, that’s the signal to rest the short line for 15 minutes so that the fish can regain their confidence. If you only catch little fish when you change to the short line then I would also come off it quickly as there’s no point in fishing for them. You’d be better off on the long pole with pellets trying to catch an F1, carp or big skimmer.”
Feeding maggots
“Because you are fishing at short range, you can feed maggots by hand and this is good for two reasons. It makes you disciplined into feeding all of the time – using a catapult or pot takes longer and it is easy to neglect feeding short when fishing the long pole,” explained Des. “Feeding by hand takes just seconds to do and you can still fish long while doing it. I begin by feeding every four or five minutes with half a dozen maggots but will up this if there are a lot of silverfish present and I think that there’s not much ending up being left in the peg for the F1s. This is the second advantage of feeding by hand in that I can change how much and how often I feed with ease so I may go from half a dozen maggots every five minutes to 50 maggots every 15 minutes. Hookbait is double maggot (one red and one white) or a single red maggot and single fluoro pinkie.”
The rig
“I will have two rigs ready for the short line with the aim of catching just as the bait settles and then hard on the bottom,” he revealed. “The trouble with F1s is that even in winter, they will be off bottom slightly but you won’t catch them by fishing off bottom so you need a set-up that lets the bait fall slowly in the last few feet of the swim.”
“In ideal conditions, that rig uses a 4x12 F1 Maggot float shotted with a string bulk of No 10 shot in the final 2ft of the swim but I also have a positive rig with a bigger 4x14 float taking a conventional bulk and two No 10 droppers. This will come into play if the fishing is good and I am catching well.”
“Lines are 0.13mm Powwrline as main to a hooklink of 0.10mm for just F1s or 0.12mm Precision Power if there are carp about. Elastic is 9h Hollo and the hook is a size 18 PR412, upped to a size 18 PR434 if the fishing is very good but it is important to match the hook to the strength of line. By this, I mean that the 412 hook is very light and not as strong as 0.12mm line and so is more likely to break first – the 434 however, is perfect for stronger lines. The rig is then set to be fished around the body-length of the float overdepth but at times I have gone up to six inches overdepth in windy weather or on a towing lake.”
Fish past the feed
“By using 2.5ft of line between pole tip and float, I have the option to flick the rig past the feed should I be getting too many line bites or foul hooking fish by fishing over the feed,” said Des. “F1s are well-known for hanging off the back of the feed and although there may not be many there, you won’t get silly bites either.”
Catch quality winter roach from a town centre canal
There can be fewer more famous canal venues in the UK than the legendary ‘hotties’ section of the Sankey St Helen’s Canal running through the middle of St Helen’s.
When the water was warmed by the Pilkington Glass factory on the banks of the canal back in the 70’s through to the 90’s, the water would steam in winter and with artificially high temperatures, unusual species for a canal could be caught including carp and even the odd tropical fish dumped into the venue by owners.
That was a while ago though and the ‘hotties’ are no longer steaming – but the fish are still there and that’s the message that controlling club St Helen’s AA are trying to get across to match anglers by running regular matches where those carp still have a part to play.
Alongside the big fish, the match angler is also likely to be catching your standard canal fare of roach, perch and bream, weights being respectable over the Christmas and New Year break and into 2017. It was for that reason that club members and local matchmen Andy Burrows and England vets legend Danny Sixsmith agreed to show what the ‘hotties’ has to offer in the modern era.
“I can remember 10 years ago the canal still steaming from the ‘gusher’ pipe that went into the canal and it was one of the few canals in the UK where you could catch carp from 2oz to 20lb because they bred throughout the year thanks to the warm water,” Andy said. “A Boxing Day match was one won with 99lb of them and every match we’ve run this winter has seen carp caught. I think 10 was the most in one match and that was when there was ice on the water!”
However, you’ll need to catch the canal right to get the carp as they seem to prefer clear water. On the day of Andy and Danny’s trip, rain had coloured the water and carp seemed to be unlikely. Fortunately, there are also lots of big roach and an ever-increasing head of big skimmers to go for.
“There are two distinct areas to the Sankey – a deep part and a shallow section but it never seems to matter where you fish as the sports is equally good and there’s no boat channel either because the canal is landlocked so the depth is constant all the way across so you can often use just the one rig!” he continued. “The canal did fall out of favour a bit because of expensive car parking but now the council offer free parking on Sundays and £2 a day throughout the week so access is as good as it has ever been.”
There’s also no hassle with cyclists and runners on the towpath as paths have been built well back from the water to keep all users of the Sankey happy. All of this adds up to make the canal what Andy thinks is the best canal in the country and one that is criminally underfished.
“If roach and bream are the target, as they are today, you can forget all about faffing around with squatts and tiny hooks plus light feeding as the fish actually respond better to a lot of feed meaning that you can fish positively,” he said. “There’s no need to go right across to the far bank either thanks to that constant depth and I typically have four pole lines in a match, one starting at around 6m from where I then work my way out by two sections at a time as the day goes on, plus a swim off to one side with a view to catching bream.”
Andy’s rig for the canal does use a typical light 4x10 canal float in the shallow areas with lines of 0.13mm main to an 0.09mm hooklink and a size 18 or 20 Kamasan B512 hook finished with a 2 to 4 grade hollow elastic fished with a puller kit. This way he can catch the big roach and skimmers but also deal with a carp if he hooks them. The big fish tend to plod around in winter so there’s no need for heavy gear and this is used on all four lines.
“I kick off at 6m where I pot in a quarter of a large pot of maggots, fishing double fluoro pinkie on the hook but I’ll also feed those others swims with the same amount of maggots, the skimmer line getting a ball of sweet bream groundbait packed with dead pinkies, casters, micro pellets and chopped worm,” Andy revealed. “You can feed a lot of bait on here and it won’t be unusual to get through four pints of maggots in a match. The key is to feed to your bites so if you are catching, you can loosefeed far more and get through the bait.”
“The skimmer line is not somewhere to have an odd look at through the day though because I’ve found that the bream get onto the bait very quickly so I would spend a good bit of time fishing here but not too long. If the bream are there you should get them quickly but if not, get back on the roach.”
For carp when the water is clear, Andy still swears by maggots as you can catch the roach and skimmers while waiting for the carp. Pellets can work but are too selective.
The day that Andy and Danny picked couldn’t have been worse with howling winds limiting how far out you could sensibly fish but it didn’t affect the fishing with lots of bites from some quality roach and a few of those famed skimmers. As expected, the carp didn’t show but with 15lb of fish apiece to show for their efforts, that didn’t matter one bit.
If you thought that canal fishing was all about dodging pole-smashing bikes and catching 2lb of tiny fish, the Sankey shows that nothing could be further from the truth. Apparently, it’s even better in the summer!
Fish the Sankey
Controlled by St Helen’s AA, the Sankey can be fished on their £30 club book which also includes Carr Mill Dam. Matches run every Sunday with no peg fee taken so your £10 pools are paid out 100%. To book on, give Andy a call on 07849 608448.